Anonymous | May 13, 2006 12:22 PM

Man, I would so buy a beer for y'all if you voted a women into the highest office. Why the hell not?

John Scalzi | May 13, 2006 12:25 PM

I don't have any problem with voting for a woman for President; never have. But -- of course -- I wouldn't vote for a woman whose policies I thought stunk.

bkw | May 13, 2006 01:51 PM

To be fair, any ass can go through life without making any enemies.

John Scalzi | May 13, 2006 01:56 PM

Well, neither Bush nor Clinton managed that, that's for sure.

Adam Ziegler | May 13, 2006 02:00 PM

bkw, what the $&*! are you talking about? Are you implying that Clinton has no enemies? When some 30% of the country starts foaming at the mouth at the mere mention of his name?!

That'd be stupid. Only a butt-sniffing moron would assert such a thing. Why, such a comment isn't even worth acknowledging...

Yeah, so, never mind.

Kevin Q | May 13, 2006 02:39 PM

???...

Anyway, I really hope Hillary doesn't run. I like her, and I've always felt that we put the wrong Clinton into the Presidency, but some of her recent moves have made me a little wary of her. I'm sure it's just politics, but she's embraced some conservative issues lately.

In the "videogames cause violence" kerfuffle of about a year ago she was a little too buddy-buddy with Jack Thompson for my comfort. That just kind of turned me off of her.

K

Anonymous | May 13, 2006 03:04 PM

Adam Zeigler, I don't think he was suggesting that Clinton hadn't made enemies, merely that it's not surprising that Bush has made some.

However, I don't think in either case making enemies is a real issue in regard to the poll. You can disapprove of how someone is doing a job without thinking about them in terms of enemies and friends.

Smurf | May 13, 2006 03:12 PM

Hilly would be happy to walk out of a Presidential election with 25% of the vote. I'd imagine she could even lose NY and Arkansas.

FusionWhite | May 13, 2006 03:19 PM

I think one of the reasons the poll turned out the way it did is because this country (the US) had its most remarkable period of economic and technological growth EVER during Clinton. I dont know how much Clinton was directly responsible for it but I bet when most people look back at the 90's they think: internet boom, overnight millionares, new computers, cell phone boom and no wars all of which bring up pleasant memories of the times and reflect well on Clinton.

Bruce | May 13, 2006 05:17 PM

Kevin Q: Not to mention that she recently had (or is about to have; I caught this on newsradio) a fundraiser thrown for her by Rupert Murdoch. Yes, that Murdoch, the force behind Faux News.

I think Hillary needs to reassess any thoughts of running in 2008. (Who should run is a whole 'nother question.)

Bill | May 13, 2006 06:18 PM

On the economic side, how much of the poll result is a product of the wretched state of reporting in the MSM?

I've heard nothing from the media recently on unemployment rates (extremely low), but we've heard lots and lots about gas prices (painful, but on an inflation adjusted basis not as high as during the Carter debacle).

And, of course, I learned years ago how easy it is to get the answer you want in a poll by careful choice of wording and question order, aided by a little manipulation of the sample selection process.

I'm hardly a fan of much that Congress and the present administration have allowed to happen, but given the world situation I believe that we could be far worse off had we reverted to the Clintonian "whine and toss around a few cruise missles" mode.

Hillary is probably bright enough for the job, but there's far too many ethics issues in her history for her to be a viable or desirable candidate.

I can't say that I have much enthusiasm for any obvious candidate from either party.

Jason M. Robertson | May 13, 2006 08:25 PM

I think the more obvious heir to the Clinton mantle is to reboot Gore. The sense of repudiation of the 2000-2008 era would hopefully be a big draw.

Bobarino | May 14, 2006 12:49 AM

Yes, people are upset about high gas prices because they read about them in the paper, and not because they're paying more at the pump. Makes perfect sense. Damn that liberal press!

Tim | May 14, 2006 01:38 AM

There is a recently released book by John Podhoretz titled Can She Be Stopped which concentrates on the subject of a Hillary campaign and its chances of success. The reviews I've read for it so far have been generally excellent. The book of course adopts the general view that a Hillary presidency would be a bad thing, but it concludes that it is a very real possibility. From my previous experience with Podhoretz I feel comfortable suggesting that I'm sure he addressed the subject comprehensively. I intend to read it as soon as I can get it from the library.

Other Stephen | May 14, 2006 04:13 AM

Semi-Random Thoughts

There is zero chance that Hillary Clinton will ever be elected President. If Lieberman is her running mate, I would bet money that they would get the lowest percentage of any Democratic ticket ever.

It is a sad but unsurprising commentary on the American people that neither our stepping into the vacancy left by the Soviets with respect to our secret prisons, American citizens held without trial (in Cuba of all places), warrantless wiretaps, and the list goes on and on; nor our going to war based on lies and killing over 50,000 Iraqi civilians and 2,000 Americans seems to have any impact on Bush's popularity, but as soon as gas prices go up his approval rating sinks and own party is ready to disown him.

How "Strange New World" can it get??? I am becoming ashamed to be an American. How greedy, ignorant, and callous can we get??? Why don't we just start eating people from the third world and get it over with.

We need a leader that is truely representative of the American spirit.Paris Hilton for President!

annonymous | May 14, 2006 06:13 AM

Oh please. Hilly's unbelieveably popular in NY----no way would she lose that state. And you think she,'s ethically challenged?! Have you paid any attention to Mr George W. NO ETHICS AT ALL Bush?! He makes Hilly look Iike a fucking saint!

The press has been 100% against her up to now. Let's see what happens when they stop printing bullshit lies about her.

Tim | May 14, 2006 03:22 PM

Annonymous:

And you think she,'s ethically challenged?!

That's an unchallengable fact of history. During the eight years of the Clinton administration the country endured the chinese torture of one scandal after another arising out of the Clinton White House. With the exception of Monica Lewinsky, all of the scandals arose as a result of Hillary's actions, not Bill's. From Travelgate, Whitewater, She's a government employee, She's not a government employee, Vincent Foster and the rest, it was Hillary that was the millstone around the Clinton administration's neck.

For someone who has been involved in politics for all of her adult life, she seems to have an astonishingly tin ear for judging what is acceptable from an ethical/legal/political standard. Or maybe she just didn't care. I'm not going to pretend to say that I know why she behaved the way she did; all I can say is that it bodes ill for any future stint she might occupy in the White House. A Senator can adopt a low profile, pick and choose their public appearances and statements, stay mostly silent on the pressing issues in the news, craft a persona that ruffles the fewest feathers, but you can't do that when your running for the most powerful political office in the world. Because the other side hires bright, professional, ambitious people who industruously endeavour to make life miserable for the opposing candidate. And with the current budget figures for a presidential campaign around $200 million, you can afford to hire really good people.

Timothy McClanahan | May 14, 2006 04:19 PM

My problem isn't with a woman for president; I have no such problem. My problem is with Hillary herself. I just cna't see myself voting for her if the Republicans put up someone credible for President (not that that has ever happened, mind, but it COULD - McCain is still out there). If it comes down to McCain vs Hillary, I'm going to vote Republican for president for the first time in my life. I'll feel bad about it, but hey, "this hurts me more than it hurts you," etc. But, if the Dems can put up someone I like, sayyy Richardson, Feingold, maybe Warner, then sorry McCain, your time in the sun is done.

Not that the Dems ever put forward anyone worth bothering with these days. *sigh* The last two have been clunkers.

Brian Greenberg | May 15, 2006 12:53 AM

Re: the economy - I can easily see why the poll turned out the way it did, but I think it's probably a little unfair. Clinton presided over the largest economic expansion in our nation's history, as we moved from an industrial economy to an information economy. All anyone ever talks about is the stock market bubble, but the fact remains that we took a giant leap forward in terms of our ability to generate GDP when the Internet became an acceptable, mainstream form of commerce. In my book, Clinton gets the credit for being smart enough to let it happen, without screwing it up by trying to "help." And in case there are any misconceptions, I mean that as a compliment.

So the poll raises the whole "best player vs. most valuable player debate." Who "handled" the economy better? Clinton definitely had the better economy (by more than a 2:1 margin), but one could argue that Bush kept us afloat when 9/11 really could have put us down for a number of years. Now, he did so in much the same way Reagan reinvigorated the economy in the '80's - by spending like a drunken sailor. So I'd likely have voted the same way in the poll, but for different reasons.

As for dividing the country, that's purely due to short memories. For the last three years of Clinton's presidency, everything the man did was a PR disaster, much the way it is now for Bush. Clinton's foibles seem like distant memories now, so it's easy to say Bush was more divisive. I think both situations were/are unfair, and Bush's is just more fresh in people's minds...

Either way, ultimate humiliation? Probably not...

Q | May 15, 2006 07:42 AM

Yes, but in those 3 years of "PR disasters" as you put it, his popularity never sagged this much...

I, and many like me, care far less about a Prez getting hummers in the Oval Office than I do about one pissing on the Constitution and telling us its for our own good.

WizarDru | May 15, 2006 08:39 AM

"Who "handled" the economy better? Clinton definitely had the better economy (by more than a 2:1 margin), but one could argue that Bush kept us afloat when 9/11 really could have put us down for a number of years."

On a macro level that may or may not be true; but I was never unemployed during the Clinton years. Virtually everyone I know WAS at one point, during the first four years of the Bush Administration. This includes employment with major power utilities, large government contractors, telecommunication and pharmaceutical firms both in and out of the Fortune 500.

The Clinton administration was accused of many scandals, but despite wasting millions of taxpayer dollars, few were ever substantiated. The one that was proven substantially concerned purgery when testifying about marital infidelity as part of another investigation. Most of the supposed scandals concerned abuse of privleges for financial gain. Compared with what the Bush administration has actually admitted to doing, let alone what it stands accused of, this seems like small potatoes.

John H | May 15, 2006 08:48 AM

the Clintonian "whine and toss around a few cruise missles" mode.

Oh my God! Talk about dimwitted...

What do you really think would have happened had Bill Clinton mobilized the National Guard for never-ending stints in Iraq? There wouldn't have been enough Secret Service agents to hold off the mob of angry Republicans come to lynch him in the rose garden. When he tossed a couple of cruise missiles into Afghanistan, targeting Osama bin Laden (remember him?) he was blasted for trying to divert attention from the Monica scandal!

Give me a fucking break!

Taeyoung | May 15, 2006 10:35 AM

My thought would that these comparative evaluations are heavily affected by the fact that Bush is currently in power, and Clinton has not been in power for six years or so. There's a proximity issue (or something like that). In the late 90's, Bush I's evaluation went up dramatically, compared to when he was actually in office, where esteem for his rule (by the end) had fallen pretty badly.

Politically speaking, this dynamic may help Sen. Clinton (the same way a certain amount of nostalgia for Bush I helped Bush II, in 2000), but I don't think we can really extrapolate from these numbers in any meaningful way.

Tripp | May 15, 2006 11:54 AM

Bill,

the wretched state of reporting in the MSM?

One way you can tell you are in a cult is when you start to discredit and then completely ignore any outside information.

Since you bring up the unemployment rate - nobody denies that there might be jobs out there for people. The problem is in what the jobs are.

As a software developer with years of experience I've got a great job but my manager recently got back from a trip to China. Her stated objective is to transfer as much of the work as she can to China and India. This process is already in place and transfering work.

I checked into what jobs were available here if I lost my job. I was told I needed to be 'flexible' and open to 'new training.'

This sounds great doesn't it? Well the new job for me was as a nurse's aide with a future as a nurse wiping some old guy's butt at a nursing home at less than half the pay I get now.

We've lost our manufacturing base and now we are losing our technical base and yet the 'happy talk' is that we can all make a living wiping each other's butts?

Look at CoolBlue. He's also a software developer but he's been smart - he's been sucking at the government's teat. The only truly secure jobs are government jobs that require you be a US citizen or jobs such as pharmacist, lawyer or doctor, which have a strong enough lobbying group to require US certification to do the job.

The rest of us are watching our jobs shipped overseas whenever the corporations can.

Remember global corporations have ZERO loyalty to the US.

Other Stephen | May 15, 2006 04:21 PM

As is so often the case Tripp, you are right on the money. Nobody's gonna listen though.

Chang | May 15, 2006 05:06 PM

Don't blame me. I'm voting for Kodos.

Joe Crow | May 16, 2006 03:40 AM

Traitorous fool! Only a stub-tentacled grout-sniffer could possibly fall for Kodos' infamous lies. Vote Kang! Your very existence depends on it!

In less surrealistic news, the depressing pattern seems to be that every past president seems better than the one we've got now, no matter who that is. How bad is the next one gonna be, if GeeDub starts looking good in retrospect?

Smurf | May 16, 2006 09:50 AM

There are peeps who won't vote for Hilly because she's female. There are more who wouldn't vote for her because she's a Demo. There are more who won't vote for her because she's a Clinton. There are more who would diss her because she's still a relatively rookie Senator. I know people who won't vote for her because she took her cheating husband back. I'm leaving out people who may strongly disagree with her on particular political issues.

The Demos' weakness essentially barfed this flaccid dick of a President onto us for the last 2 terms. They can't afford to lose this election, which is precisely what they'll do if they run HRC.

Would you vote for anyone with that many strikes against them? If I were running the campaign for GOP 2008, I could guarantee at least one episode involving her running off the debate floor in tears.

Brian Greenberg | May 16, 2006 12:26 PM

Other Stephen:

Someone's listening.

Tripp:

One way you can tell you are in a cult is when you start to discredit and then completely ignore any outside information.

So if I provide some outside information, you won't ignore it, right? ;-)

As a software developer with years of experience . . . my manager's . . . objective is to transfer as much of the work as she can to China and India.

I don't know your employer, but you have a lot more options than nurse's aide (btw, my wife is a nurse & all I have to say is when you're old enough to need someone to wipe your butt, you'll be damn glad there are folks in the world willing to do that with a smile on their face. 'Nuff said.)

First of all, significant chunks of the development process simply can't be shipped off-shore. Tell your boss you want to get into a business analyst role, and work one-on-one with the users of the software to define their requirements and make sure the developers deliver what they want. That's usually a higher paying job, and requires you to be where the users are, not where the developers are. Alternatively, go join a consulting firm and help them coordinate their off-shore developers' work with clients. That requires you to be where the clients are, not where the developers are. The list goes on...

Development itself is becoming a commodity and, like all commodities, it's price is dropping. China/India provide the commoditized service at a lower price, so they get the business. You can blame Bush and/or "global corporations" if you like, but those facts just aren't going to change.

On the upside, most of the jobs that go oversees eventually come back. Look at the auto industry. For a while, Tokyo was kicking our Big 3's ass by producing better & cheaper cars in Japan. Then it occurred to them that they could make even more money by applying the same production techniques in the US, hiring the recently laid-off auto workers at a rate between the Japanese rate and the old US rate, and save the difference on the shipping & tariff costs. So now, most Toyota's are made in Kentucky, not Tokyo.

Same is (starting to be) true for software development. All the big Indian firms are opening offices in the US (upstate New York, the midwest, etc.) Developers, once the "golden boys" of IT, will see drastic salary cuts (remember - it's a commodity now), but the benefits of common timezone (or close to it), more stable infrastructure, and reduced travel time/cost will draw the work back. People who expand their role beyond just the development step in the software lifecycle will (typically) do just fine.

As for the unemployment rate, I'll just throw in that every economic recovery in recent memory has been accussed of generating lower income jobs to replace the higher income jobs that were lost. The country created ~23 million jobs when Clinton was president (as the information economy exploded), but in his first term, he was accussed of trading high tech jobs for jobs at McDonalds.

The most accessible data I can find compares 1Q05 to 1Q06 (not exactly an historical trend), but at least in the past year, median wages have gone up,not down.

Blacklisted | January 27, 2007 06:13 AM

I found your comments and will not be voting for Hillary because I am a former businesswoman who was forced out of business during the Clinton Years when Hillary Clinton was in China on her trip touting her wishes for a better life for women everywhere. She wanted every woman everywhere to enjoy what woman in America knew. I too would like to have the same rights as those granted to the woman of color, the Asian woman, and the Hispanic woman in the United States, as this is where I was born, (unfortunately, I am white). I have traveled abroad, and shown my goods abroad...but I grew up and made my home, and the US remains my business location. I have asked appropriate questions about procedures that were backed up by law. I have paid a high dollar to professionals and to non professionals and to experts and non experts...all to no avail against the mafia like tricksters in the courtroom...I love that blank stare that the legal profession and the banking profession can take on at a moments notice...the stare of disassociation. They are there, but not really...it is like an out of body experience...they are there in the flesh but have tuned you out...out of your money, out of your life, and out of your business. I know, I made the trip. I am a student of the mind, behavioral science and the strdy of the English language is my love...I am writing my first book, entitled, "Predator, In the Eyes of the Law!"

Ms. Clinton is a lawyer, I believe...and I am sure she would want the law followed to the letter. We are all aware of the twists and turns by the Clinton's past and now that it is January 27, 2007 and the mystery is out of the bag and Hillary announced that she is a candidate for the presidency, I wonder how manyof you who posted comments are going to stick with your opinions...I know I am....I am attempting to start over after a 16 year battle with the system...I am still standing...I stand for something...I have been blacklisted for seeking the truth and equal rights to operate as a white business woman in the US. I have seen the tricksters in the courts from a front row seat as me and my business have been brutalized and forced out. Give the same treatment that was given tomy "incorporated" (this was ignored) business, my name, my credibility to those others of other races and backgrounds...the immigration problem will be solved...no one would come here to be treated as I have been. I have learned to sleep in my car, eat honey and vinegar for survival, and to use port-a-johns at street fairs and festivals. I presented my product line at the 1990 Heimtex in Frankfurt, Germany as one of 97 American companies... to show my once noted American made lighting products wherever I could to make any type of incoome for survival. All this suffering and loss due to the fact that I dared to know and learn the law and my rights and to ask questions. I will never lower my head, I was right yesterday, I am right today, and I will remain right throughtout all the tomorrows to come...no matter what the books of life in the clerk of courts office reflect as to my time on this planet. That is the sad part...this is my legacy in recorded fashion and it is all a lie...Character assassanation is a horrible thing...Ms. Clinton is seeking to restore hers. She is a woman at heart and I know what she is about also, because I too am a woman who has suffered the slings and arrows of society.

Today, I am creating a video from my former home that is now a bed and breakfast facility on a family farm...My dad's homeplace is to open alson around March 1, 2007 and a wonderful wedding grounds is being opened along with meditation areas and walking trails, in other words, a community enrightment program for which we neede funding to do it right...our money has gone to the legal defense teams from hell who did nothing for us....

Greenbrier Place, Hemric House and The Rose & Thistle Coffee House are all facilities on this farm and are places to which Hillary Clinton and all the others who have launced an exploratory are being invited...Ms. Clinton was invitated the day after she announced...I have lived a sub-standard life, since the death of my dad in 1985, and the drought years that followed his death and the near death of my mother only 36 days after my dad died. I have lived on fumes while fighting to be what and who I know I am. On October 22, 2006, I became the owner of the WBBWN, the White Battered Business Woman Network, and will be seeking the support of other women in this country and men too, if they do not want to see this type of treatment to women continue. I will not crawl under a rock and hide the facts, that is what the lawyers have done....I will seek memberships into this organization for the white business woman who has no recourse. I mean to make a difference and to make sure that Hillary Clinton does see what a real American business woman looks like that has merit....I had the struggles of a lifetime....I dare her to walk in my shoes...then she can tell me how wonderful it is to live in this country..She needs to get a real job for at least two decades, and live like ordinary people live. She needs to know and respect what real people are suffering in the legal systems.

We need to correct the ills of this country before we move into other countries to make them like us.

I had supposed assistance from the office of Bill Clinton as President. Bill Clinton's letter to me about help for my business that directed me to the SBA of Charlotte brought only more humiliation and loss and more discrimination.

Reverse discrimination...The very first thing I was asked, "What race are you?" When I answered, "white"...I was told this program was for Asian, Black, and Hispanic women business owners...when I asked for her name, as an employee of the SBA in Charlotte, NC. she prompty hung up without answering...

This type of behavior is what I have endured for nearly two decades as I have fought to keep this more than 200 year old farm property (the location for my natinal manufacturing and shipping business, an artistic lamp and shade business) in my family and to make it a wonderful part of the community that has now become North Carolina Wine Country....It is lovely here and I am in the fight of my life to survive and put this all behind me and go forward...it can be woderful....The fight today is...we now have embezzlement and identity theft issues that arfe draining us financially and emotionally and have put everything we own including the roofs over our heads at risk....Instead of creating income, we are now are seeking to change the identity of both my mother and myself. We want the right to start over....

In the State of the Union address I did not hear the words "Elder Abuse, Predatory Lending, Financial Exploitation, Legalized extortion by lawyers, or Illedgal credit prodcedures, and Medical Prescription Overdosing"....It takes a Village Ms. Clinton ocnce wrote, and she is exactly right...

"Put Another Notch in the Bible Belt" is a Comedy Zone routine I am working on....I am the proud owner of a 867,000.00 divorce and the bill is not finished growiing...It is not over till it is over....Divorced on April 4, 2005, my now exhusband is part of my life more than ever.

I am being forced out of my village by the church, friends of my husband, and businss associates, deacons.

All these problems were started by deacons in the church who hold positions of economic impact, banker, and agents in lending institutions...BANKERS WHO CONTRIVE TO DEFRAUD THE ELDERLY...MUST BE STOPPED. They contribute to the collection plate on Sunday and rape and pilage the lives of the people of the community on Monday and the rest of the week to force us into the theater called court....The last resort for right and justice. This is the joke of the century...and the last thing we need in the white house is someone who does not understande that my 83 year-old mother who is caught right in the middle of a nasty marriage, separation, property settlement, and divorce is not able to ever make back what she has lost in her remaining elder years and neither am I. I turned 61 years old yesterday and have many more years ahead of me in the good health I teach people to seek. I wish all or the best of choices...as for me...I work for food from my own property and have been battling the system through Reagan, Bush Sr. Clinton, and now George W. Bush....It has been a very difficult struggle and it has made no difference who or what the politics...I have not had a break....and I have not been given what the laws that we paid fat-cat law makers to develope intended. Take a look at who we are and what we are and take a trip to North Carolina, visit a real American business team, my mother and me.